Comments on: Death To The Div http://www.russellheimlich.com/blog/death-to-the-div/ The Blog of Russell Heimlich Wed, 17 Mar 2010 13:36:55 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.2 hourly 1 By: Lennie http://www.russellheimlich.com/blog/death-to-the-div/comment-page-1/#comment-1483 Lennie Sun, 07 Mar 2010 11:20:04 +0000 http://www.russellheimlich.com/blog/?p=1802#comment-1483 For a more specialized webapplication we used XML-namespaces that works with getElementsByTagName (); in IE. You have to find the right combination though, so it's not a lot of find and will probably break eventually. :-( For a more specialized webapplication we used XML-namespaces that works with getElementsByTagName (); in IE. You have to find the right combination though, so it’s not a lot of find and will probably break eventually. :-(

]]> By: Олег http://www.russellheimlich.com/blog/death-to-the-div/comment-page-1/#comment-1470 Олег Tue, 09 Feb 2010 16:27:30 +0000 http://www.russellheimlich.com/blog/?p=1802#comment-1470 Well, often I see, that a "dl-dd-dt" group is treated as a set of blocks, where the whole structure means "header", "dd" stands for "logo", "dt" is for "item of menu list". I consider this to be quite semantic. It depicts just the same as a dictionary section. (Maybe I confused the order of tags, but you got the point I'm making) Well, often I see, that a “dl-dd-dt” group is treated as a set of blocks, where the whole structure means “header”, “dd” stands for “logo”, “dt” is for “item of menu list”. I consider this to be quite semantic. It depicts just the same as a dictionary section.
(Maybe I confused the order of tags, but you got the point I’m making)

]]> By: Олег http://www.russellheimlich.com/blog/death-to-the-div/comment-page-1/#comment-1469 Олег Tue, 09 Feb 2010 16:17:52 +0000 http://www.russellheimlich.com/blog/?p=1802#comment-1469 Bright ideas expressed, guys. When css works with objects at block organization and text formatting, where's the need for special tags, when everything is a block with defined behavour! Bright ideas expressed, guys. When css works with objects at block organization and text formatting, where’s the need for special tags, when everything is a block with defined behavour!

]]> By: Russell Heimlich http://www.russellheimlich.com/blog/death-to-the-div/comment-page-1/#comment-1351 Russell Heimlich Thu, 05 Nov 2009 01:10:01 +0000 http://www.russellheimlich.com/blog/?p=1802#comment-1351 There are always going to be people who don't care about semantic meaning, or using tags properly as long as they get their task done fast. They exist now with classes and IDs (id=''myelement" class="greenComicSansBold", Bleh!) I'm just proposing a way to simplify things. Of course there will be trouble and confusionat first, but after that we can easily come up with more flexible best practices. There are always going to be people who don’t care about semantic meaning, or using tags properly as long as they get their task done fast. They exist now with classes and IDs (id=”myelement” class=”greenComicSansBold”, Bleh!) I’m just proposing a way to simplify things. Of course there will be trouble and confusionat first, but after that we can easily come up with more flexible best practices.

]]> By: sebastian http://www.russellheimlich.com/blog/death-to-the-div/comment-page-1/#comment-1348 sebastian Wed, 04 Nov 2009 15:20:49 +0000 http://www.russellheimlich.com/blog/?p=1802#comment-1348 great reading! thanks for sharing your thoughts :) but I think the problem is not the DIV (nor the SPAN). A lot of (web) developers I talk to don't understand the underlying concepts of html markup and how it works (and many of them do not even care because the DIV is just so easy to use). when you start giving people "native tag names" it does not automatically lead to better markup or better understanding of the content these "native" elements hold. it could even get worse not only because of the imminent cultural differences (the same thing can have a different meaning in other countries/cultures) but also because of the lack of standardization/generalization. this could ultimately lead to a "Babylonian state" where nobody cannot understand anybody. and what if lazy developers start creating elements like MYCONTAINER1, MYCONTAINER2? I am also not a big fan of HTML5 with all the new "container" elements like NAV, ARTICLE etc. I am more comfortable with the ROLE attribute and WAI ARIA. but I think that's personal taste :) great reading! thanks for sharing your thoughts :)

but I think the problem is not the DIV (nor the SPAN). A lot of (web) developers I talk to don’t understand the underlying concepts of html markup and how it works (and many of them do not even care because the DIV is just so easy to use).

when you start giving people “native tag names” it does not automatically lead to better markup or better understanding of the content these “native” elements hold. it could even get worse not only because of the imminent cultural differences (the same thing can have a different meaning in other countries/cultures) but also because of the lack of standardization/generalization. this could ultimately lead to a “Babylonian state” where nobody cannot understand anybody.

and what if lazy developers start creating elements like MYCONTAINER1, MYCONTAINER2?

I am also not a big fan of HTML5 with all the new “container” elements like NAV, ARTICLE etc. I am more comfortable with the ROLE attribute and WAI ARIA.

but I think that’s personal taste :)

]]> By: Russell Heimlich http://www.russellheimlich.com/blog/death-to-the-div/comment-page-1/#comment-1347 Russell Heimlich Wed, 04 Nov 2009 02:38:55 +0000 http://www.russellheimlich.com/blog/?p=1802#comment-1347 Yea even something like that would be a good start. Then we would just need to make writing XML Namespaces easy for mere mortals and not content mavens. Yea even something like that would be a good start. Then we would just need to make writing XML Namespaces easy for mere mortals and not content mavens.

]]> By: Russell Heimlich http://www.russellheimlich.com/blog/death-to-the-div/comment-page-1/#comment-1346 Russell Heimlich Wed, 04 Nov 2009 02:35:28 +0000 http://www.russellheimlich.com/blog/?p=1802#comment-1346 I've become used to the way of laying out pages with CSS2. Those new layout modules are a bit tough to wrap my head around and I'm not sure I see much of a benefit. DIVs will be with us for a long, long time. It's just a shame to see all of this effort to get a few new elements instead of going all the way and allowing name-your-own tags. I’ve become used to the way of laying out pages with CSS2. Those new layout modules are a bit tough to wrap my head around and I’m not sure I see much of a benefit. DIVs will be with us for a long, long time. It’s just a shame to see all of this effort to get a few new elements instead of going all the way and allowing name-your-own tags.

]]> By: m3talsmith http://www.russellheimlich.com/blog/death-to-the-div/comment-page-1/#comment-1345 m3talsmith Wed, 04 Nov 2009 00:27:16 +0000 http://www.russellheimlich.com/blog/?p=1802#comment-1345 Meaningless is trying to chase down the ids that make just as little sense as people claim the tag names will. Meaningless is trying to chase down the ids that make just as little sense as people claim the tag names will.

]]> By: m3talsmith http://www.russellheimlich.com/blog/death-to-the-div/comment-page-1/#comment-1344 m3talsmith Wed, 04 Nov 2009 00:25:28 +0000 http://www.russellheimlich.com/blog/?p=1802#comment-1344 @Russel: I wasn't sure if you were being sarcastic at first :). I think everything will move more towards json/ajax/canvas. It just makes sense. But all of that will wreak hell with the text based browsers. Someone needs to start delving in to text based browsers to give them a certain amount or level of js and css in order to give them at least the base dom replacement and display semantics (mainly text line breaks etc) that we take for granted in the GUI world. I haven't messed with a text browser in a few years. Does anyone know if there has been work on this front? @Russel: I wasn’t sure if you were being sarcastic at first :) . I think everything will move more towards json/ajax/canvas. It just makes sense.

But all of that will wreak hell with the text based browsers. Someone needs to start delving in to text based browsers to give them a certain amount or level of js and css in order to give them at least the base dom replacement and display semantics (mainly text line breaks etc) that we take for granted in the GUI world.

I haven’t messed with a text browser in a few years. Does anyone know if there has been work on this front?

]]> By: m3talsmith http://www.russellheimlich.com/blog/death-to-the-div/comment-page-1/#comment-1343 m3talsmith Wed, 04 Nov 2009 00:17:05 +0000 http://www.russellheimlich.com/blog/?p=1802#comment-1343 Lol! What's funny is that I left actionscript because html/css/js was just that much better for prototyping. Nothing beats the ease of html/css/js for quick progmatic templating and display. Lol! What’s funny is that I left actionscript because html/css/js was just that much better for prototyping. Nothing beats the ease of html/css/js for quick progmatic templating and display.

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